PSE Fees - Who should pay?

[keesindy]

However, there is a strong core of folks who think the seller is obligated to pay the certificate fee, and, in fact, the APS code of ethics seems to support that position:

13. Requests for extension of time to return purchased material while awaiting expert opinion is not an acceptable reason to hold up payment for same. Prompt refund shall be from the seller should the material submitted for opinion be deemed other than as offered or described by the seller. Unless otherwise previously agreed, the seller shall also bear reasonable costs for obtaining the opinion if material is other than as offered or described. The buyer shall inform the seller immediately after receipt of any expert opinion. Requests for extension of time must be in writing.

(Emphasis mine.)

However, to me, this suggests that this is under the circumstances that an extension for certification is requested at time of sale, and the request needed to be made by the buyer at the time of purchase.

Here's the entire code:

http://stamps.org/Almanac/alm_CodeofEthics.htm

-- Dave

Could it be that APS, being in the business of expertizing stamps, is encouraging both buyers and sellers to get more stamps expertized than might otherwise occur without this language in the APS Code of Ethics?

[AWorldOfStamps]

I want to thank everyone for your comments. The buyer did send me a PM thanking me for alerting him to his error. In fact he has also purchased a few more stamps from me. As stated many times by others, communication is the best tool we all have and it is FREE.

I don't know how the actual problem was resolved, but I do feel much better dealing with this buyer now that he responded to me. My initial reaction was to block him to avoid any chance in the future of him expecting me to pay for something that I didn't authorize. Of course as previously pointed out, the actual seller may have agreed to this and was prepared to make the reimbursement.

I'm glad to hear that most feel only the purchase price (plus shipping) should be refunded unless agreed to differently between the parties prior to expertizing. I totally agree the buyer needs to be satisfied, but not at the expense of the seller. I have previously made refunds on two MNH common stamps that the buyer planned on having graded. He contacted me to advise the stamps contained some minor gum blemishes caused during production that would prevent him from obtaining the grade he wanted. While I thought this was a little extreme because the stamps were MNH as described, I honored his request. Even though he provided me positive feedback on this transaction, I blocked him from bidding on any of my future offerings because 99% of my buyers would have found nothing wrong with these "almost" gems. .... John

[stampsz]

This all depends if you are a dealer or buyer,each has a position.most on this forum are collectors,thinking only as a buyer.Most dealers are ethical as are most buyers. If you go to a doctor and get a diagnosis and then go to another doctor and he says the first one was wrong. Is the first doctor obligated to refund your new fee plus his fee? O nly if agreed upon at the outset. A dealer works on a profit, the buyer wants to buy as cheap as possible(thats life). I personaly would only agree if I was selling at a high price and I trusted the person I bought it from. If I am making a regular markup and the stamp is being sold cheap (I always say looks real or probably fake)because I am not sure ,I will not agree. How can I run a business buying high selling low and agree to refunds I have no control over.What stops the buyer from switching your stamp for a similar looking one thats a fake and getting a bad cert? I did not think of this idea first, it has happened before I was a dealer. If you think all buyers are goody 2 shoes, you have alot to learn. On the APS site the expertising is done by the APS, so you know it was a true cert. They don't send it elsewhere.

[mdroth]

This is an important topic; not that necessarily John asked a specific question - just what one should do in this situation.

The buyer that accidentally messaged you - if it wasn't stated/mentioned in the ad, they're dreaming. Good luck with the seller.

Basically, everyone has it right - it has to be in the ad & discussed beforehand. (Does everyone know "georgetownlaw"?? One of my old favorite ebay sellers who came over here a few months back. Search for him & read one of his ad descriptions for futher opinions on this subject.)

For lower priced stamps, or those popular common 1940 commems that people seem to want to pay 500x cv for "perfect gem" blah blah, this discussion of certs is just silliness. Between the buyer/seller in that world. Not sure where that world is, so I can't comment...

For rare/valuable/scarce items: bluish paper / wash/frank coils / easily fakable items (315s/imperf/part perf revenues) - certs are needed. Of course, as above, up to individual seller to state their conditions, & buyers must agree beforehand.

For these cases, in my opinion: I would want a cert. If the item comes back as fake/not as described by the seller, I would clearly want a refund of both the purchase price & cert fee. If real/as described, cert cost is the buyers. To prevent shenanigans, the seller can send the stamp directly to the certifier after the buyer makes the payment. The certifier can send the stamp & cert to the buyer. Problem solved.

What we really need is the "stamp police" as I've feared for years. (Nightmares of them banging on my door in the middle of the night, demanding to see my album; finding a stamp mis-placed/mid-identified, & hauling my ass off to "stamp prison" which is probably in Canada, like in "moose jaw" or someplace worse!) We need a less expensive way, between us & the "professionals", of id-ing stamps. (Is Bill Weiss reading this??)

[cocollectibles]

... in Canada, like in "moose jaw" or someplace worse!

There's some place worse?

To prevent shenanigans, the seller can send the stamp directly to the certifier after the buyer makes the payment. The certifier can send the stamp & cert to the buyer. Problem solved.

Interesting; but would you charge the buyer for the certification up front (when both agree to it, of course) and then refund the buyer if it was found genuine? Might get complicated; buyer could claim you sent in a real stamp but still sold them a fake; shady dealers could find they have something more valuable and cancel the sale, claiming lost item, etc. It just creates more and different shenanigans.

Human nature; gotta love it. (why, I don't know but you gotta)

[mdroth]

Interesting; but would you charge the buyer for the certification up front (when both agree to it, of course) and then refund the buyer if it was found genuine? Might get complicated; buyer could claim you sent in a real stamp but still sold them a fake; shady dealers could find they have something more valuable and cancel the sale, claiming lost item, etc. It just creates more and different shenanigans.

Human nature; gotta love it. (why, I don't know but you gotta)

No - if genuine, as advertised, buyer pays for the cert. So you charge the buyer upfront; it's real; pse or whoever sends stamp & cert to buyer. If fake, seller owes buyer the cert cost.

Buyer claims sent in a real stamp, but sold a fake? Buyer bought real; buyer never held stamp until certifed; kinda silly scenario.

Shady dealers cancelling sale? Only understood real after cert; pse instructed to send to buyer, cause buyer paid cert cost.

If meteors strike pse, aps, & pf, all in the same day, doesn't really matter whether it was real or not, right?!

Sorry to all Moose Jaw-ians...we've picked on Canada long enough. Anyone here from Mississippi? Worst case - we can revert to France...

[oneeaglelover]

As a buyer, I look at their sell description carefully. Many reputable sellers will offer full refund if stamps deemed not the stamps as described. Many older and rarer stamps come with the disclaimer with refund if certified not as described. I have purchased twice this way but I definitely emailed the seller to verify that prior to purchase. That also reinforced the issue of 'timing' for completion of sale. Well, I went 50/50. One (a favorite of mine, CSA frameline)...the second, not as described. I ate the cost of certification on one while the seller ate the second one, after I sent 'copy' of cert and stamp. Once I received my refund, I sent him the original certificate. I guess it's all about who you are dealing with and keeping communication lines current!

[dianealthea]

I think you are right on, ein eagle!

[revcollector]

I assume that the buyer would make the choice of which expertizing committee that they wish to send the item to, since they might not all be best suited to all stamps.

[olderthandirt]

I think it goes this way - at least it does with the Big Houses.

1. I win a stamp at auction. I ask for a certificate. They send it off (my choice where) and when the cert arrives, they send me the stamp and a bill for the cert.
2. If the cert does not say what they advertised, they refund my bid and the cert fee.
3. As far as a PSE cert is concerned. Unless I advertise it as 85, the grading fee must be born buy the buyer. But if the PSE says it's 85, but reperfed, then I am liable for the cert fee and returning the purchase price, since I did not advertise it correctly.

Dirt

[revcollector]

I think it goes this way - at least it does with the Big Houses.

1. I win a stamp at auction. I ask for a certificate. They send it off (my choice where) and when the cert arrives, they send me the stamp and a bill for the cert.
2. If the cert does not say what they advertised, they refund my bid and the cert fee.
3. As far as a PSE cert is concerned. Unless I advertise it as 85, the grading fee must be born buy the buyer. But if the PSE says it's 85, but reperfed, then I am liable for the cert fee and returning the purchase price, since I did not advertise it correctly.

Dirt

A whole can of worms would be opened if after sending it to one of them, say PSE, who says it's good, the buyer than sends it to another committee, say the PF and it comes back as no good. This can and has happened in the past, and probably will in the future. Not so much on grading, but on coils, grills, and possibly even on revenues. Then the arguments can really begin.

[philatarium]

They send it off (my choice where)

I think this is true within certain constraints, but I admit I don't have firsthand experience. I think you get to choose which, possibly among several, certifying group that the auction house specifies. (I think it has been a bone of contention that some of the major US houses do not, or at least did not, recognize the APS service.) And you couldn't just pick another one that was not on their list out of the blue, unless you had managed to work out some arrangement ahead of time.

-- Dave

[kingfox]

Since I opened store on this site I have the following terms on my "terms and condition" page

GUARANTEE:

All items in my store are considered to be genuine until otherwise stated in the description to this item. In case you bought a stamp from me and send it within a period of 6 months after the date of my invoice to either APEX or PF (Philatelic Foundation) or BPP Germany to obtain an expert´s report and their certificate states that this item is false, I will reimburse you the price of the item and as well the expert´s fee.


And within a period of 2 1/2 years I only had 1 case the buyer sends the item for expertization (a Philippine Scott # 1a): with no consequences for me.

- Franz

[olderthandirt]

Franz has explained why this issue is not very pertinent to most of us. We just don't sell items of high enough value very often where a certificate might come into play. I have maybe 100 stamps with certificates, but I bought most of them already with the certificate. I have requested a certificate only once, on a Philippines E8, because there were only about 160 made, the overprint could be forged and I wanted to be sure. But the catalog value for that item is about $1500.

Only once has a certificate for an item I sold been requested and the certificate stated exactly what I advertised (and that was on the APS site). So it seems this issue is not often in the cards for me. I simply don't sell items with enough value to make them worth while.

PSE certs for grading are another thing. I won't pay for one as either a buyer or seller, unless it states that what I have advertised is wrong. I think grading is a big waste of time and money.

BTW that doesn't mean that a few questionable items have not slipped into all our collections, or that we haven't accidentally sold some such in our stores periodically. It's a minefield out there.